We carried out a set of 1 on 1 conversations to better understand peoples' experiences of inclusion and belonging in the web3 space. For this conversation, Princesa meets BXB LOVE, a music artist working in the web3 space.
Princesa:
Welcome! Would you like to start by introducing yourself with your pronouns and your occupation?
BXB LOVE:
Yes! I go by BXB LOVE, she/they. 27-year-old creator of music and worlds and arts and portals and community. Based in LA, from Vancouver, BC originally.
Princesa:
That is so helpful. I appreciate you for telling us all your information! Ok, so we’re going to ask you how you felt about entering web3 and the specifics of that. And then we’re gonna ask you how you feel being in it, and then we’ll ask you some specific questions about DEI and your opinion on what your future looks like and what the future of DEI - Diversity, Equality and Inclusion - could look like within web3.
BXB LOVE:
Cool. And what is this for exactly?
Princesa:
So this is a research project that I was lucky enough to have Protein want to do with me; essentially my intention was to figure out a way to have in one place, information from marginalised people as to what web3 has looked like for us when we started. I wanted to talk to people who have been in this space and have gotten in at varying periods of time. So we have Natalie Crew who's been within web3 since like 2016 telling us about her experiences, but we also have people who have just joined, to talk to and see what it looks like now as a complete newbie. We haven't necessarily gotten to the point of executing the research to create it, but from the jump, my intention was to create an onboarding document that outlines what marginalised people, especially women, trans people, and racially marginalised people did when they got into this space that helped them to find other… usually it’s other like-minded individuals who sent them the resources and helped them to find the information. Finding your footing at the beginning is kind of challenging and you don't necessarily find out the negatives about web3 until you get into a group chat, you know what I mean? So just placing somewhere some sort of outline of: this is what a lot of people have done. And you don't necessarily have to replicate what everybody has done, but to have multiple different perspectives to give people the ideas of options of how you can start navigating it if you want to.
BXB LOVE:
I love that.
Princesa:
Yeah, thank you. I'm glad that people are resonating with it. 'Cause when you're alone in your house and you’re like, I have this idea, I think this is cool, but...
BXB LOVE:
I mean it's like art. It's like anything that you're birthing into the world. Like, I like this and I think there’s potential, but are other people gonna want to be involved or resonate? Or what is this gonna look like when it's actually a thing happening? I'm proud of you for following it and making this happen.
Princesa:
I appreciate you! Your new space is so beautiful.
BXB LOVE:
Thank you, I'm really happy here. I think it'll be a special time, a new chapter, you know? I'm open to whatever it's gonna be. Alright, hit me with the questions.
Princesa:
OK, let's go. Thank you for guiding me through. I hadn't even realized I hadn't explained it to you.
BXB LOVE:
I mean, I had like seen in the posts, but I just hadn't had a distilled sort of breakdown of what it was for. So yeah, thank you for sharing.
Princesa:
OK, so now let's rewind… How did you feel entering web3?
BXB LOVE:
I was very sure not to enter the space until I was in a place where I felt really ready to enter it and I felt like it was like the right choice for me to make at the time, because leading up to that and in my early days of hearing about and exploring web3, it was very foreign. It didn't seem like a place that would feel comfortable at all, and the language was new. It didn't look or sound or feel like me… in the media and in social media what I was seeing was all white dudes making 3D digital art and I was like that's not me, nothing about that, as you know. So it just didn't seem like a place that was meant for me. And then I met LATASHÁ and this woman named Sin. And they showed me this whole other side of the space and all these potentials that could exist if I got involved and made it a space for people like us, for it to be a space for people like us - people like us have to exist in the space. So that was how they positioned it when they spoke to me about it, and I thought that was really important. I thought that regardless of if I get involved in this space or not, what it becomes is something that will impact me, that will impact my children, that will impact my friends, and my community and the world. And I would rather have a role in creating something that is empowering and sustainable and meaningful for the world. So that is what we are responsible for when it comes to me, instead of not playing a role and then still being responsible for the outcomes of whatever happens. So when I entered that was really my thought and where I was of the frame of mind that like, get in on the ground floor so that your perspective and what you value is a part of what is being built, otherwise that won't be a part of the conversation. 'Cause nobody knows what you think or feel or value more than you do. So if you want that to be a part of what is being built, you have to be a part of the conversation. So that was my approach when I came in and how I was feeling.
Princesa:
That's wonderful. I mean, the circumstances, not so much of course, but the action and you choosing to come into this space with so much intention, is beautiful. Around what time was this? When did you start talking to LATASHÁ
BXB LOVE:
So I first met with LATASHÁ in June of 2021, and then it took me till September of 2021 and being like hm… I don't know, I don't think this is for me. This is scary and I don't know if I'm ready to put in the energetic commitment that would be required for me to really make something of this choice. So yeah, it took a couple months of me going back and forth, and then September I was like, OK, I'm gonna just like attend Zoratopia, I'm gonna start following people on Twitter and just see what is actually up within the community of people that I would be interested in being involved with, you know? So then it was like September to December of me exploring that way. And then in December I dropped my Genesis.
Princesa:
What was that experience like, dropping your Genesis?
BXB LOVE:
I was just trying something new that I had never done before. And I didn't really have any expectations… well, that’s a lie, I feel like I always have some sort of expectations… like I wanted to have fun and I wanted it to sell and I wanted people to be interested, you know? But I didn't let those desires cloud my ability to just show up and have fun and host a space and be like, maybe no one will show up and that's a totally real reality that could happen, but I'm not doing this so people show up, I'm doing this so that the people that do show up, like, it’s meaningful for them and for me and for us. I mean it was super supportive, I think it resonated a lot more than I ever could have expected. I had only really engaged with people in the space through group chats like the Zoratopia group chat on Twitter. So I didn't really know if people were going to show up for me, you know, or show up for the art. I think with the first “thing”, people are excited and they want to know what it's about. So it did feel like people were showing up. It felt like there was this support and energy around it, which I really appreciated and was beautiful to see, and being able to share the stories behind the art in a way that I had never really seen in the web2 space was really cool, like having people actually ask questions and wanna know, “why did you make this? What does this mean? What was the process like?” Those are all things that I love to talk about. So feeling like people were genuinely interested was really cool and felt really Nice. That really was a positive first experience, I would say. But I think I also went into it with a super open mind.
Princesa:
That drop party was… or maybe you had a few spaces?
**BXB LOVE:**I had a drop space and then a closing space, but I think it was the drop space that was a fun one with Cara and Katie and they had a little bid-off moment, and I was like, this is exciting!
Princesa:
Yeah, it was super exciting. I was thinking so in depth about the rollout for your mix tape and reflecting on my own personal experiences. The way that you dropped your mix tape. You gave us so much, to the point where, looking back, your rollout made me feel the way that going out to get CD's on the day that they came out felt - like, “is it gonna sell out?” It was all of that, and I love the fact that you’ve been doing NFTs that relate to each track on the tape. Because as a fan, I get to experience the project for so long. Which is, I would imagine, what it feels like to also have made it. You know what I mean?
BXB LOVE:
And I wonder about that, like is it too long? Is it too much? Is it getting boring? Am I beating a dead horse here? I don't like that term. I don't know why I just used that saying, but you know what I mean. Part of me is like, no, I feel like these songs each deserve their moment and people can tune out when they're ready to tune out. That's fine, you know? I'm doing this for the music because the music and the art and the story and the reflections that they contain, they still have people to reach, and they still are integrating, and what they mean is still evolving. So why not talk about that and why not create space for that?
Princesa:
It sounds like you've had a large community of people show up for you. At the beginning, how were you balancing what you were doing in web2 - dropping a mix tape - with what you were doing in web3?
BXB LOVE:
In the beginning I feel like I was a lot less involved in web3. I would say only since maybe January have I really started becoming active in the group chats - although the past month I have been a ghost - but, you know, active in the group chats and going to the spaces and really trying to see what it’s all about and see what people are actually like, and show up for people, and create space for people to show up for me. So in the beginning, I would say they were very separate, and now I feel like I’m still kind of trying to figure out how to integrate the two a little bit. It feels like there’s the web3 community and there’s the web2 community, and the people who follow me on web2 don’t really care about what’s happening on web3. And the people who follow me on web3 are inherently integrated into web2 because web3 is like a layer on top of web2. So the balance was really more me learning what I wanted my web3 involvement to be and I think it's still changing as my energetic capacities shift and my priorities shift and the art that I'm making shifts and my life shifts - you know, like moving and big life changes - I'm learning still how to balance and what that balance will look like and what my boundaries are. So I don't know that I have a concrete answer for that 'cause I think it is very much shifting right now and has been shifting, like this is still new for me. I haven't even been in this space for a year yet, so it's very fresh and very much still like I'm learning. But balance overall is very important to me. As that reveals itself, I would be happy to share with you.
Princesa:
Yeah we can definitely talk about that for sure. In the best way, that is such a recurring topic, at least in our circles, we talk about self care with each other. We give each other these tips, we talk about books that were cathartic for us to read. And I find that really beautiful. To segway into a question for you…do you feel that you have - as we talk about community all the time when we talk about web3 - do you feel that you have found a community to grow with in web3?
BXB LOVE:
I've been thinking about that a lot, especially with things like Lit NFT, Gang and Zoratopia. I feel like those are communities that I am a part of. And that we are all growing together. But it also feels like we're all doing our own thing in a shared space? I don't know yet. It's still too fresh I think, but I do feel like there are communities that I am a part of and that we're all growing together and supporting each other. There hasn't been enough time to know that if something goes down, are we gonna show up with each other? I mean, there have been instances where people need help like Dom with his car and the community showed up, you know? That was a huge testament to, we care about the well being of the people involved in this. I think for me, it's just like beyond the artists, beyond the creators, which is so much of what the Twitter bubble is right now, what does that greater community look like? What about the people buying NFT's who aren't crypto/web3 people, like what is that community? What is that gonna look like? How do we engage that space in a way that is meaningful to them? Because I think in the end of it, the intention is for it to be that greater community, you know, and to use this to build our artist community, but also use this to have artists build this community of people who resonate with what we are creating, that aren't also creators. Does that make sense? So for me right now I've been thinking a lot about like, OK, who am I doing this for? Like, I love these artists communities but we’re not going to be able to sustain each other’s NFT or artist growth, you know? We can all buy each other’s NFT's and show up to each other’s spaces, but is that really helping us to grow? It's like me having all my friends come to my show feels good, but it's not as impactful as me having even five new people who have never seen me show up to a show. So how do we figure that out? How do we generate that connection and interest in a way that is authentic and meaningful for everyone involved?
Princesa:
Yeah. I appreciate your perspective. You think so deeply about aspects of the experience that I personally know I brush over.
BXB LOVE:
I mean, that's why we're all here, so we can share.
Princesa:
Yes. To hear you speak is, every time, so grounding, and I appreciate you.
BXB LOVE:
I’m grateful to be able to share. And it’s funny, ‘cause sometimes I think about all this stuff, but sometimes I don't even realize I'm thinking about it until a conversation like this is happening and then it's like, oh! I have thoughts about this, I have thought about this, you know?
Princesa:
OK, here is the question. What are your specific needs as they relate to the intersections of your identity, and what do you look for when you start to feel comfortable? Specifically within your web3 relationships?
BXB LOVE:
OK, this is going to be an annoying-ass answer, but I'm trying to see my needs more as desires that I'm interested in exploring instead of things that I need. I don't necessarily think we need anything, you know? But we are taught to believe we do, because that makes us do things like work so we can have money to buy things that we think we need. So needs in relation to my identity and how that is involved with web3? I mean, I think my life need is to just be seen for what I understand myself to be, which is kind of impossible, because people are going to see me in relation to themselves and what they understand the world to be. But I just need an outlet in which I can express where I am now, and what I understand now, and what I believe now, and I need to give myself the freedom to then change my mind and redact the comment. To be like, oh I thought that yesterday, and now I kind of think about it more like this. So I would say my needs are more about me creating space for myself to do what I need to do, and being gentle with myself in that process. And letting it be whatever it is on the receiving side, because I can't control the receiving side and I can't control what other people bring to the table or how they show up or how they react. Yeah. So I don't really know how to answer this question, I guess that's what I'm going to do.
Princesa:
Well, that was a great answer. You give me a lot to think about.
BXB LOVE:
I'm glad. Thinking is good. I mean, It's good in moderation. I'm a bit of an over-thinker, so sometimes I'm like, you don't need to think so hard about this, it's fine.
**Princesa:**I feel it. So in your opinion, what are the most important things in making a space feel inclusive?
BXB LOVE:
Hot take: boundaries. I would say boundaries are the first one. Personal boundaries, unlike community boundaries, because that allows for safety and an understanding of, this is what we’re here for, this is the intention of this space. Like a guideline of how we're going to engage here because for me, inclusivity doesn't mean that people can go around…it's hard 'cause one could say, “oh, an inclusive space would be one where I can say whatever I want and that’s fine 'cause it's inclusive and I'm allowed to be here.” And it's like, yes, you're allowed to be here. But if we're here for a certain intention, you have the choice to either be here towards that intention or should not be here. It's inclusive for a purpose not inclusive for, ‘let's all just do whatever the fuck we want and there’s no responsibility for our actions. You have to take responsibility for what you choose to bring to a space, you know, and I think that a part of respecting an inclusive space is respecting, yes you can be whoever you want, to do whatever you want really, but there are going to be consequences for those things. There's a consequence for everything. Like every choice has a reaction, so what sorts of reactions are you interested in being responsible for? So yeah, I think inclusion requires responsibility, personal responsibility and community responsibility. Boundaries-slash-guidelines and an intention for the space. And then agreement to show up for that intention. Like, you don't have to be there if you don't want to be there, you know? And that doesn't mean that you're bad or good, or the group is bad or good. It just means that your intention and the intention of the space that you were curious to be in, those intentions don’t align and that’s fine.
Princesa:
Super Duper plus one. I very much agree. I feel you. It kind of makes me chuckle when I'm trying to not get too serious about it. 'Cause obviously there are other times where this concept tenses me up, I've seen a lot of takes as far as what decentralization means that kind of outline anarchy.
BXB LOVE:
Yeah, I mean, we've seen conversations like this in the Zoratopia chat, you know, where one person was like, “no rules, no nothing.” And I’m like OK, but what’s the point of that, who is it really helping, you know? I don't know. I think we have to understand the responsibility that comes with our choices. And you can choose to live in a world of anarchy, but that still means that what you do can hurt people and do you want to be responsible for hurting someone? If yes, then OK, I guess go hurt people, but I think there's deeper questions that you could ask there, like, OK, why do I feel comfortable being responsible for hurting people? Yeah. Inclusion is a hard one 'cause, I don't wanna say that they're sides, but from our side of: include marginalized people, include us, we see that as a positive. But then there’s also the negative of a “make America great again” person being like, well you have to include me 'cause it's an inclusive space and I'm allowed to say this 'cause freedom of speech. It's like, yes, but also like, why do you wanna be that way? This is horrible, why why why? Like, what are you saying and why? Why are you fighting so hard to say this thing that people are saying is hurting them? And why do you choose to tell them that it's not hurting them when they're telling you it's hurting them? I don’t get that.
Princesa:
Yeah, it's really dangerous when the disconnect is right here. I agree with you a lot, I'm just reflecting right now on everything that happened, ‘cause it did blow up beyond what happened in the Zoratopia chat. The same thing happened in a couple of other chats, same person.
**BXB LOVE:**And then that person DM’d me and they were like, what do you think of this? And I was like, I don't really wanna be talking about this. This feels gossipy, you know, and I don't want to do that. Like, while I think that you brought up some great points, I think the way it was brought up was more destructive than helpful. So if your intention is to create an empowering space for everyone, I think it's important to think about the way that we're talking about these things. ‘Cause you’re creating walls around yourself in this community, and that doesn’t align with what I want, so I don’t know how to engage with this.
Princesa:
Agreed, agreed. That is the one thing Jamie brings up in our conversations all the time, 'cause sometimes I need a reminder. But it's like you said earlier, we don't know everybody here. We’ve got a really good idea of what's going on and like you said, even in the group chats that I'm in every day, it’s exactly as you said, exactly the same. I'm just bringing up the points that you were saying earlier about sustainability of like…I'm curious to see how these relationships develop in the future.
BXB LOVE:
Totally, totally. And I will add one more thing about an important factor of inclusivity. An important factor of inclusivity inside web3 is individual and community healing outside of Web 3. Because biases and beliefs and habits exist in our real lives. We’re bringing that into web3 or bringing that into everything we do. So I think until we really look at those things and do the journeying to embrace our shadow and embrace those things that maybe do make us approach situations in a less inclusive way, those things need to be addressed in real life for anything to be different in web3. And there's all these spaces of: how do we be diverse here and how do we make sure our voices are heard, but, right now whatever we're dealing with in real life is going to be what we're dealing with here, 'cause we're the same people in both of those spaces. How do we make things diverse here? We address the root of those issues in the real world. It’s not just going to change here because we created a new space. Real estate is going to be treated like real estate in the real world. Everything is going to be treated like we treat it in the real world because we are those same people. And I think we forget that. Like, oh, we’re creating utopia… it’s like, yeah we can’t. We haven’t created utopia in real life. I don’t know why we all think the digital space is all of a sudden going to be different.
Princesa:
I'm a community manager for this Discord server that is a DAO which is meant to bring women, trans people and gender-queer people into Crypto. And we got raided by like 1,000-plus people who are trying to get on our waitlist because somebody is circulating a dated screenshot from our notion page that is like, this is how you get onto the wait list. This NFT that they’re looking for sold out in February. It’s not gonna happen, but we’re getting raided in April over that. So we don’t have control over this internet, like there are people who don't understand English as well as we do who can get into our communities and like, you know what I mean?
BXB LOVE:
Yep, it's just real world people behind the screen being like, hehheheheh… and there will be trolls and there will be haters and there will be everything that exists in the world because those are the people behind the screens. But it is cool that it's bringing together like-minded people who can do things like what we're doing here, you know. This is a part of it too. Well, there is hope. I’m not saying all this to you like it's hopeless, but I'm just saying this 'cause I think it's a conversation that's not had often.
Princesa:
Yeah, yeah exactly and there's space for your perspective and how you see the space. Especially because so many people wait to hear somebody say what they think before they give themselves… you know?
BXB LOVE:
I agree with that. Exactly, instead of being the one to go out on the limb and be like well, about this?
Princesa:
Exactly. So it feels good from my perspective to hear you say these things because I agree with you.
BXB LOVE:
I'm glad to be able to hold up the mirror.
Princesa:
Have you seen any DEI initiatives or any resources within DEI in space that you like?
BXB LOVE:
Yeah, I mean there are a lot of Twitter pages that are, like, “Black NFT art”, or “web3 baddies” or “LGBTQIA+ web3” community. Whatever, you know, there’s a lot of that, which is great. I just worry that we’re in a void, you know? We all know that we exist. We all know that we're making art and we see each other’s art. And it’s all us following those pages who are sharing art of the people that we know exist. So my question is, how do we transcend that and make it part of just the common conversation. When do we get to be artists instead of “I’m a Black non-binary artist”, you know? For now, I'm totally here to show up for that, because, you know, representation is important. But are we gonna get to the day where it's like, this is just a dope artist? Who makes dope art? And their identity is not irrelevant because it informs the art that is being made, but their identity isn’t the catch phrase or the click bait, you know? So I think there are a lot of initiatives, which is important right now. I just worry that we are just serving ourselves to ourselves instead of making ourselves a part of the general conversation. But there are also initiatives like Black NFT art and Eddie and Brittany have a Spaces radio show where they feature artists of color and marginalised artists. So those things exist and I think it’s great they do this. I’ve seen them and I wish to be involved with as many as possible and help spread the message and champion the mission. I'm just sometimes thinking that the people who need to see this are not seeing this. The people who would be impacted by, like, oh, this art is dope and these people do exist and like they have interesting perspectives, and maybe I can question my reality a little bit, like, those people probably aren’t seeing the initiatives in the way that we would hope that they are. I read this book called “Invisible Women” which is all about the gender data gap and how data on women isn’t included. A lot of things in the world…like, a seat belt is built for the average male when it's not even tested on women. Things like that, but it's like, men aren’t reading this book. Women are reading this book, you know, like male legislators and policymakers and scientists aren't reading this book, women are reading the book, so, like, how? But we can see the results of a world built by men for men; like, we don’t need this book, men need this book. So how do we communicate that? How do we get it to the people who it would actually make a difference if they saw and learned and heard what was being said and taught and shown. The more people to think about it the better. Like, let's have everyone thinking you know.
Princesa:
That reached me. That definitely raised me up. So what do you think - not that you’re required to do it - what do you think that we could do to make that change or to reach that audience?
BXB LOVE:
One, I think delivery is everything. I know that when my partner and I are having an argument or when he has a suggestion about how I could do something, the way it’s framed is everything and will completely dictate whether or not I’m going to listen or receive the feedback, or consider what is being said. It will dictate whether I'm defensive or whether I'm sad. Our approach is important, just like that conversation with the person in the Zorotopia chat. If that had been communicated in a different way, that could have been a totally different conversation, but then again that goes back to, is this person doing the inner journeying that is necessary to realize that the way things are being communicated will impact the way that they received? It’s kind of this whole cycle of, we do our work and then we reflect that work outward, and it will affect a couple people. And then those people will do their work and the spiral gets bigger and bigger and bigger. So I think messaging, packaging, communicating in ways that are receivable. I don't think that means hand-holding. I don't think that means, like you know, pre-chewing the food and spitting in the mouths of these people like baby birds. Ideally we're all adults here and eventually we can get to the point where we realize the truth of how we've been existing and how it's been harmful for a lot of people. But if we're communicating that in a way that is going to react in people being defensive, and people not wanting to listen, and people being like, well I have problems too and I'm being ignored here too… that’s not gonna get us anywhere. This isn’t a trauma contest. This is like, how do we make it better for the people at the bottom of the barrel? Because then it is better for everyone. And I think looking at this in a way that reframes it away from fighting inequality and fighting for this, and fighting for that, to…something else, I don't know what that something else is, but I think whenever we fight like just makes that thing stronger in my mind, like you the war on drugs is not going to make drugs go away. That just strengthens the power of drugs within the system that we exist, you know? So yeah, re-framing away from like we are fighting these things or fighting for these things to we are… I don’t know. I haven’t figured out what the other voice is yet. But I think that’s an important reframe. And really, doing the inner healing to realize what we are trying to do and what we are trying to build. Are we trying to go from being outsiders to being insiders, or are we trying to build a world where there's no need for outside and inside? Do we all want to be millionaires or do we want to live in a world where everyone has their needs met? 'Cause sometimes it feels like we're trying to go from not having our needs met to being millionaires, instead of going from not having our needs met to creating a world where we can all have our needs met. So I think those are important conversations to have with ourselves and have with our creative communities 'cause it sometimes feels like we are building something that is making us insiders and making us wealthy instead of removing the need for inside and outside and removing the barriers to everyone having our needs met.
Princesa:
It's intense, it's a lot. There's a lot to figure out. I don't know that I'm any closer to figuring out the final answer, but I do feel like I'm a little closer to at least understanding maybe what might be necessary.
BXB LOVE:
Like, figuring out a step towards something other than where we are. I think that’s all we can do. You know, as we take steps, like what we think is the answer may just be what we need to think is the answer for us to start moving in a direction that will actually eventually get us to some sort of answer, and I don't know that there is an answer. There's only, what is our intention and how do we align with that? How do we make choices that lead us towards a right intention, is it a wrong intention? I don’t know that exists, it’s just, what we’re choosing is important, so what are we choosing to make important and why?
Princesa:
Yeah, yeah. This is true. Thank you so much.
BXB LOVE:
Absolutely a pleasure.
Princesa:
I feel like you answered everything that I wanted to ask you very fully and very beautifully. Thank you again, endlessly.
BXB LOVE:
You’re welcome.
